{"id":2400,"date":"2026-06-04T10:12:44","date_gmt":"2026-06-04T10:12:44","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/presynct.com.au\/?p=2400"},"modified":"2026-06-04T10:14:22","modified_gmt":"2026-06-04T10:14:22","slug":"workplace-innovator-podcast-with-lisa-copland","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/presynct.com.au\/index.php\/2026\/06\/04\/workplace-innovator-podcast-with-lisa-copland\/","title":{"rendered":"Workplace Innovator Podcast with Lisa Copland"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<p><strong>Effective workplace strategy starts by connecting directly to the business itself.<\/strong><\/p>\n\t\t<iframe loading=\"lazy\" width=\"560\" height=\"315\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/2spNIUMuGsI?si=DjBIw3KD6Cazvlnj\" title=\"YouTube video player\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" referrerpolicy=\"strict-origin-when-cross-origin\" allowfullscreen=\"\"><\/iframe>\t\n\t\t<iframe allow=\"autoplay *; encrypted-media *; fullscreen *; clipboard-write\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"175\" sandbox=\"allow-forms allow-popups allow-same-origin allow-scripts allow-storage-access-by-user-activation allow-top-navigation-by-user-activation\" src=\"https:\/\/embed.podcasts.apple.com\/au\/podcast\/ep-403-start-with-the-strategy-not-the\/id1374082515?i=1000769592506\"><\/iframe>\t\n\t<p>Our Director <a id=\"ember827\" tabindex=\"0\" href=\"https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/in\/lisa-copland-99601312\/\">Lisa Copland<\/a> had the absolute pleasure of being interviewed by <a id=\"ember828\" tabindex=\"0\" href=\"https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/in\/mikepetrusky\/\">Mike Petrusky<\/a> for the <a tabindex=\"0\" href=\"https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/company\/eptura\/\" target=\"_self\" data-test-app-aware-link=\"\">Eptura<\/a> Workplace Innovator Podcast.<\/p>\n<p>Innovative workplace solutions often come from diverse perspectives and a willingness to challenge industry norms. We can now utilise technology integration and AI to dynamically optimise space allocation, grouping teams based on actual attendance and work patterns, moving away from static floorplans.<\/p>\n<p>Together, Mike + Lisa explore how workplace design and portfolio decisions are most effective when integrated with an understanding of how people work and the broader organisational goals.<\/p>\n<p>Mike asks Lisa why she believes that successful workplace transformation involves aligning business strategy, workplace experience, spatial design, technology, and change management as interconnected elements. They explore how workplace design and portfolio decisions are most effective when integrated with an understanding of how people work and broader organizational goals.<\/p>\n<p>Lisa says that innovative workplace solutions often come from diverse perspectives and a willingness to challenge industry norms, so she encourages technology integration and using AI to dynamically optimize space allocation by grouping teams based on actual attendance and work patterns, moving away from static floor plans. Optimizing existing space usage via technology and behavioral change can be a valuable step before committing to changes in property portfolios, so Mike and Lisa offer the practical advice and inspiration you will need to be a Workplace Innovator in your organization!<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>__________<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<h5>Learn more<\/h5>\n<ul>\n<li>Read the article discussed in the podcast called &#8220;Reframing the Workplace: How strategy, technology, and human behavior are coming back into sync&#8221;: <a href=\"https:\/\/eptura.com\/discover-more\/blog\/reframing-the-workplace\/\">https:\/\/eptura.com\/discover-more\/blog\/reframing-the-workplace\/<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Watch the podcast on YouTube: <a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/playlist?list=PLSkmmkVFvM4H3pwnlU2AuqynuRDpvnh4J\">https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/playlist?list=PLSkmmkVFvM4H3pwnlU2AuqynuRDpvnh4J<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Discover free resources and explore past interviews at: <a href=\"https:\/\/eptura.com\/discover-more\/podcasts\/workplace-innovator\/\">https:\/\/eptura.com\/discover-more\/podcasts\/workplace-innovator\/<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<h5>Connect<\/h5>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/presynct.com.au\/index.php\/contact\/\">Reach out to the Presynct team to discuss your workplace strategy<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Connect with Lisa on LinkedIn: <a href=\"https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/in\/lisa-copland-99601312\/\">https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/in\/lisa-copland-99601312\/<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Connect with Mike on LinkedIn: <a href=\"https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/in\/mikepetrusky\/\">https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/in\/mikepetrusky\/<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\t\t\t\t<img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/presynct.com.au\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/06\/Presynct-on-the-Workplace-Innovator-Podcast.png\" alt=\"Presynct on the Workplace Innovator Podcast\" itemprop=\"image\" height=\"879\" width=\"1561\" title=\"Presynct on the Workplace Innovator Podcast\" onerror=\"this.style.display='none'\" loading=\"lazy\">\n\n\n\n<p><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Our Director Lisa Copland had the absolute pleasure of being interviewed by Mike Petrusky for the Eptura Workplace Innovator Podcast.  Innovative workplace solutions often come from diverse perspectives and a willingness to challenge industry norms. We can now utilise technology integration and AI to dynamically optimise space allocation, grouping teams based on actual attendance and work patterns, moving away from static floorplans. <\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":3,"featured_media":2407,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[1],"tags":[],"booktics_service_category":[],"class_list":["post-2400","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-uncategorized"],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v27.4 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/product\/yoast-seo-wordpress\/ -->\n<title>Workplace Innovator Podcast with Lisa Copland - presynct.com.au<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Innovative workplace transformation is best when business strategy, workplace experience, design, technology, and change are integrated.\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/presynct.com.au\/index.php\/2026\/06\/04\/workplace-innovator-podcast-with-lisa-copland\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Workplace Innovator Podcast with Lisa Copland - presynct.com.au\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"Innovative workplace transformation is best when business strategy, workplace experience, design, technology, and change are integrated.\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/presynct.com.au\/index.php\/2026\/06\/04\/workplace-innovator-podcast-with-lisa-copland\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"presynct.com.au\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:published_time\" content=\"2026-06-04T10:12:44+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:modified_time\" content=\"2026-06-04T10:14:22+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:image\" content=\"https:\/\/presynct.com.au\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/06\/AiL-20260202-6095-lowres.jpg\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:width\" content=\"1500\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:height\" content=\"1000\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:type\" content=\"image\/jpeg\" \/>\n<meta name=\"author\" content=\"Jessica Douglas\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:card\" content=\"summary_large_image\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:label1\" content=\"Written by\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data1\" content=\"Jessica Douglas\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:label2\" content=\"Est. reading time\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data2\" content=\"2 minutes\" \/>\n<script type=\"application\/ld+json\" class=\"yoast-schema-graph\">{\"@context\":\"https:\\\/\\\/schema.org\",\"@graph\":[{\"@type\":\"Article\",\"@id\":\"https:\\\/\\\/presynct.com.au\\\/index.php\\\/2026\\\/06\\\/04\\\/workplace-innovator-podcast-with-lisa-copland\\\/#article\",\"isPartOf\":{\"@id\":\"https:\\\/\\\/presynct.com.au\\\/index.php\\\/2026\\\/06\\\/04\\\/workplace-innovator-podcast-with-lisa-copland\\\/\"},\"author\":{\"name\":\"Jessica Douglas\",\"@id\":\"https:\\\/\\\/presynct.com.au\\\/#\\\/schema\\\/person\\\/0bf5d654fea07432c9a2e6772687cec6\"},\"headline\":\"Workplace Innovator Podcast with Lisa Copland\",\"datePublished\":\"2026-06-04T10:12:44+00:00\",\"dateModified\":\"2026-06-04T10:14:22+00:00\",\"mainEntityOfPage\":{\"@id\":\"https:\\\/\\\/presynct.com.au\\\/index.php\\\/2026\\\/06\\\/04\\\/workplace-innovator-podcast-with-lisa-copland\\\/\"},\"wordCount\":341,\"image\":{\"@id\":\"https:\\\/\\\/presynct.com.au\\\/index.php\\\/2026\\\/06\\\/04\\\/workplace-innovator-podcast-with-lisa-copland\\\/#primaryimage\"},\"thumbnailUrl\":\"https:\\\/\\\/presynct.com.au\\\/wp-content\\\/uploads\\\/2026\\\/06\\\/AiL-20260202-6095-lowres.jpg\",\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\"},{\"@type\":\"WebPage\",\"@id\":\"https:\\\/\\\/presynct.com.au\\\/index.php\\\/2026\\\/06\\\/04\\\/workplace-innovator-podcast-with-lisa-copland\\\/\",\"url\":\"https:\\\/\\\/presynct.com.au\\\/index.php\\\/2026\\\/06\\\/04\\\/workplace-innovator-podcast-with-lisa-copland\\\/\",\"name\":\"Workplace Innovator Podcast with Lisa Copland - presynct.com.au\",\"isPartOf\":{\"@id\":\"https:\\\/\\\/presynct.com.au\\\/#website\"},\"primaryImageOfPage\":{\"@id\":\"https:\\\/\\\/presynct.com.au\\\/index.php\\\/2026\\\/06\\\/04\\\/workplace-innovator-podcast-with-lisa-copland\\\/#primaryimage\"},\"image\":{\"@id\":\"https:\\\/\\\/presynct.com.au\\\/index.php\\\/2026\\\/06\\\/04\\\/workplace-innovator-podcast-with-lisa-copland\\\/#primaryimage\"},\"thumbnailUrl\":\"https:\\\/\\\/presynct.com.au\\\/wp-content\\\/uploads\\\/2026\\\/06\\\/AiL-20260202-6095-lowres.jpg\",\"datePublished\":\"2026-06-04T10:12:44+00:00\",\"dateModified\":\"2026-06-04T10:14:22+00:00\",\"author\":{\"@id\":\"https:\\\/\\\/presynct.com.au\\\/#\\\/schema\\\/person\\\/0bf5d654fea07432c9a2e6772687cec6\"},\"description\":\"Innovative workplace transformation is best when business strategy, workplace experience, design, technology, and change are integrated.\",\"breadcrumb\":{\"@id\":\"https:\\\/\\\/presynct.com.au\\\/index.php\\\/2026\\\/06\\\/04\\\/workplace-innovator-podcast-with-lisa-copland\\\/#breadcrumb\"},\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"ReadAction\",\"target\":[\"https:\\\/\\\/presynct.com.au\\\/index.php\\\/2026\\\/06\\\/04\\\/workplace-innovator-podcast-with-lisa-copland\\\/\"]}]},{\"@type\":\"ImageObject\",\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"@id\":\"https:\\\/\\\/presynct.com.au\\\/index.php\\\/2026\\\/06\\\/04\\\/workplace-innovator-podcast-with-lisa-copland\\\/#primaryimage\",\"url\":\"https:\\\/\\\/presynct.com.au\\\/wp-content\\\/uploads\\\/2026\\\/06\\\/AiL-20260202-6095-lowres.jpg\",\"contentUrl\":\"https:\\\/\\\/presynct.com.au\\\/wp-content\\\/uploads\\\/2026\\\/06\\\/AiL-20260202-6095-lowres.jpg\",\"width\":1500,\"height\":1000},{\"@type\":\"BreadcrumbList\",\"@id\":\"https:\\\/\\\/presynct.com.au\\\/index.php\\\/2026\\\/06\\\/04\\\/workplace-innovator-podcast-with-lisa-copland\\\/#breadcrumb\",\"itemListElement\":[{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":1,\"name\":\"Home\",\"item\":\"https:\\\/\\\/presynct.com.au\\\/\"},{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":2,\"name\":\"Workplace Innovator Podcast with Lisa Copland\"}]},{\"@type\":\"WebSite\",\"@id\":\"https:\\\/\\\/presynct.com.au\\\/#website\",\"url\":\"https:\\\/\\\/presynct.com.au\\\/\",\"name\":\"presynct.com.au\",\"description\":\"Just another WordPress site\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"SearchAction\",\"target\":{\"@type\":\"EntryPoint\",\"urlTemplate\":\"https:\\\/\\\/presynct.com.au\\\/?s={search_term_string}\"},\"query-input\":{\"@type\":\"PropertyValueSpecification\",\"valueRequired\":true,\"valueName\":\"search_term_string\"}}],\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\"},{\"@type\":\"Person\",\"@id\":\"https:\\\/\\\/presynct.com.au\\\/#\\\/schema\\\/person\\\/0bf5d654fea07432c9a2e6772687cec6\",\"name\":\"Jessica Douglas\",\"image\":{\"@type\":\"ImageObject\",\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"@id\":\"https:\\\/\\\/secure.gravatar.com\\\/avatar\\\/b772484f13206ec8b9ee53c7e9e242bd2408e1c98a24c9f541faedd560a87e0b?s=96&d=mm&r=g\",\"url\":\"https:\\\/\\\/secure.gravatar.com\\\/avatar\\\/b772484f13206ec8b9ee53c7e9e242bd2408e1c98a24c9f541faedd560a87e0b?s=96&d=mm&r=g\",\"contentUrl\":\"https:\\\/\\\/secure.gravatar.com\\\/avatar\\\/b772484f13206ec8b9ee53c7e9e242bd2408e1c98a24c9f541faedd560a87e0b?s=96&d=mm&r=g\",\"caption\":\"Jessica Douglas\"},\"url\":\"https:\\\/\\\/presynct.com.au\\\/index.php\\\/author\\\/jessica\\\/\"}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"Workplace Innovator Podcast with Lisa Copland - presynct.com.au","description":"Innovative workplace transformation is best when business strategy, workplace experience, design, technology, and change are integrated.","robots":{"index":"index","follow":"follow","max-snippet":"max-snippet:-1","max-image-preview":"max-image-preview:large","max-video-preview":"max-video-preview:-1"},"canonical":"https:\/\/presynct.com.au\/index.php\/2026\/06\/04\/workplace-innovator-podcast-with-lisa-copland\/","og_locale":"en_US","og_type":"article","og_title":"Workplace Innovator Podcast with Lisa Copland - presynct.com.au","og_description":"Innovative workplace transformation is best when business strategy, workplace experience, design, technology, and change are integrated.","og_url":"https:\/\/presynct.com.au\/index.php\/2026\/06\/04\/workplace-innovator-podcast-with-lisa-copland\/","og_site_name":"presynct.com.au","article_published_time":"2026-06-04T10:12:44+00:00","article_modified_time":"2026-06-04T10:14:22+00:00","og_image":[{"width":1500,"height":1000,"url":"https:\/\/presynct.com.au\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/06\/AiL-20260202-6095-lowres.jpg","type":"image\/jpeg"}],"author":"Jessica Douglas","twitter_card":"summary_large_image","twitter_misc":{"Written by":"Jessica Douglas","Est. reading time":"2 minutes"},"schema":{"@context":"https:\/\/schema.org","@graph":[{"@type":"Article","@id":"https:\/\/presynct.com.au\/index.php\/2026\/06\/04\/workplace-innovator-podcast-with-lisa-copland\/#article","isPartOf":{"@id":"https:\/\/presynct.com.au\/index.php\/2026\/06\/04\/workplace-innovator-podcast-with-lisa-copland\/"},"author":{"name":"Jessica Douglas","@id":"https:\/\/presynct.com.au\/#\/schema\/person\/0bf5d654fea07432c9a2e6772687cec6"},"headline":"Workplace Innovator Podcast with Lisa Copland","datePublished":"2026-06-04T10:12:44+00:00","dateModified":"2026-06-04T10:14:22+00:00","mainEntityOfPage":{"@id":"https:\/\/presynct.com.au\/index.php\/2026\/06\/04\/workplace-innovator-podcast-with-lisa-copland\/"},"wordCount":341,"image":{"@id":"https:\/\/presynct.com.au\/index.php\/2026\/06\/04\/workplace-innovator-podcast-with-lisa-copland\/#primaryimage"},"thumbnailUrl":"https:\/\/presynct.com.au\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/06\/AiL-20260202-6095-lowres.jpg","inLanguage":"en-US"},{"@type":"WebPage","@id":"https:\/\/presynct.com.au\/index.php\/2026\/06\/04\/workplace-innovator-podcast-with-lisa-copland\/","url":"https:\/\/presynct.com.au\/index.php\/2026\/06\/04\/workplace-innovator-podcast-with-lisa-copland\/","name":"Workplace Innovator Podcast with Lisa Copland - presynct.com.au","isPartOf":{"@id":"https:\/\/presynct.com.au\/#website"},"primaryImageOfPage":{"@id":"https:\/\/presynct.com.au\/index.php\/2026\/06\/04\/workplace-innovator-podcast-with-lisa-copland\/#primaryimage"},"image":{"@id":"https:\/\/presynct.com.au\/index.php\/2026\/06\/04\/workplace-innovator-podcast-with-lisa-copland\/#primaryimage"},"thumbnailUrl":"https:\/\/presynct.com.au\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/06\/AiL-20260202-6095-lowres.jpg","datePublished":"2026-06-04T10:12:44+00:00","dateModified":"2026-06-04T10:14:22+00:00","author":{"@id":"https:\/\/presynct.com.au\/#\/schema\/person\/0bf5d654fea07432c9a2e6772687cec6"},"description":"Innovative workplace transformation is best when business strategy, workplace experience, design, technology, and change are integrated.","breadcrumb":{"@id":"https:\/\/presynct.com.au\/index.php\/2026\/06\/04\/workplace-innovator-podcast-with-lisa-copland\/#breadcrumb"},"inLanguage":"en-US","potentialAction":[{"@type":"ReadAction","target":["https:\/\/presynct.com.au\/index.php\/2026\/06\/04\/workplace-innovator-podcast-with-lisa-copland\/"]}]},{"@type":"ImageObject","inLanguage":"en-US","@id":"https:\/\/presynct.com.au\/index.php\/2026\/06\/04\/workplace-innovator-podcast-with-lisa-copland\/#primaryimage","url":"https:\/\/presynct.com.au\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/06\/AiL-20260202-6095-lowres.jpg","contentUrl":"https:\/\/presynct.com.au\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/06\/AiL-20260202-6095-lowres.jpg","width":1500,"height":1000},{"@type":"BreadcrumbList","@id":"https:\/\/presynct.com.au\/index.php\/2026\/06\/04\/workplace-innovator-podcast-with-lisa-copland\/#breadcrumb","itemListElement":[{"@type":"ListItem","position":1,"name":"Home","item":"https:\/\/presynct.com.au\/"},{"@type":"ListItem","position":2,"name":"Workplace Innovator Podcast with Lisa Copland"}]},{"@type":"WebSite","@id":"https:\/\/presynct.com.au\/#website","url":"https:\/\/presynct.com.au\/","name":"presynct.com.au","description":"Just another WordPress site","potentialAction":[{"@type":"SearchAction","target":{"@type":"EntryPoint","urlTemplate":"https:\/\/presynct.com.au\/?s={search_term_string}"},"query-input":{"@type":"PropertyValueSpecification","valueRequired":true,"valueName":"search_term_string"}}],"inLanguage":"en-US"},{"@type":"Person","@id":"https:\/\/presynct.com.au\/#\/schema\/person\/0bf5d654fea07432c9a2e6772687cec6","name":"Jessica Douglas","image":{"@type":"ImageObject","inLanguage":"en-US","@id":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/b772484f13206ec8b9ee53c7e9e242bd2408e1c98a24c9f541faedd560a87e0b?s=96&d=mm&r=g","url":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/b772484f13206ec8b9ee53c7e9e242bd2408e1c98a24c9f541faedd560a87e0b?s=96&d=mm&r=g","contentUrl":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/b772484f13206ec8b9ee53c7e9e242bd2408e1c98a24c9f541faedd560a87e0b?s=96&d=mm&r=g","caption":"Jessica Douglas"},"url":"https:\/\/presynct.com.au\/index.php\/author\/jessica\/"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/presynct.com.au\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/2400","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/presynct.com.au\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/presynct.com.au\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/presynct.com.au\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/3"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/presynct.com.au\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=2400"}],"version-history":[{"count":8,"href":"https:\/\/presynct.com.au\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/2400\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":2411,"href":"https:\/\/presynct.com.au\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/2400\/revisions\/2411"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/presynct.com.au\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/2407"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/presynct.com.au\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=2400"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/presynct.com.au\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=2400"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/presynct.com.au\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=2400"},{"taxonomy":"booktics_service_category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/presynct.com.au\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/booktics_service_category?post=2400"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}